In response to Constitutional Proposals (Presidential Election), Stephen Palmer writes:
Rob, this is a critically important issue to bring to light, and I appreciate your comments.
Almost without exception, the Founders understood, with Aristotle, that next to tyranny, democracy is the worst form of government. This understanding is displayed all throughout the Federalist Papers.What people fail to realize is the difference between a democratic culture, and a Democracy in terms of governmental forms.
The Founders wanted a Constitutional Republic that supported a democratic society, or a society where people truly believed and lived the ideal that all men and women are created equal in the sight of God. A democratic society is a mobile society; people are free to move up and down social classes as they see fit. However, a democratic form of government is something entirely different.
I also write alot about this issue on my blog and I think you and I could have some interesting discussions. I look forward to hearing from you!
Rob Scot replies:
I acknowledge that a good government must in some repects be, strictly speaking, undemocratic. However, there is a fine line to tread when we speak of a government designed to uphold democracy in society while itself remaining less than fully democratic. Again, I do not take issue with the fact that this must be the case to an extent; but it is inevitable that the populace will at times come to view certain government actions as hypocritical in this regard. Therefore, if it is feasible to make the government more democratic while still upholding the rule of law, due process, and sound reason, I believe such measures are desirable. Specifically, I believe the process by which our nation elects its president is such an area.
I don't pretend that such a measure would be undertaken without some risk and controversy, but democray has always been risky business. Your comment that "next to tyranny, democracy is the worst form of government" brought to my mind another quote:
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." -- Sir Winston Churchill
By the way, where can I find your blog? I would very much like to visit it.
30 January 2008
22 January 2008
Forum Posting
In response to Constitutional Proposals (Presidential Election), hercules mulligan writes:
This whole issue of democracy and the Constitution is a very intriguing one indeed. As a result of my study of the Founding Fathers' writings, I have come of the opinion, as Alexander Hamilton did, that "democracy is our real disease." The Federalist Papers (not just the issues written by Hamilton) also carry this theme.
Now, the Founders were not saying that we should not have a popular government in some sense, but that the excesses of popular rule should be controlled. In order to understand American government, and the US Constitution, we must understand that LAW is above the will of the rulers and the ruled. All too many contemporary historians have made the mistake of thinking that we need to make the Constitution more "democratic," when a glance at the Notes and Debates of the Constitutional Convention (available free online through my blog The Founders' Bookshelf) clearly shows that the Framers avoided making the federal government directly responsive to the populous of America.
I wrote a post entitled "The Purpose of the Constitution" some time ago, to try to make this clear. I think that the Electoral College should remain a part of the Constitution for two reasons:1): the Framers deliberately instituted it to check what they called the "democratic excesses" of a country, and also to provide the way to give the state governments a say in the choosing of the next President as well.*2): to start tinkering with our Constitution, because people believe that "modern times" have changed our nation so much that we need to change our Constitution is dangerous, and I would almost say, treasonous. Because when the people of the land think that they can change the law of the land any time they please, they have already destroyed the foundation of a government of law, which is what America is supposed to be.
*I think that changing the Constitution to make it more "democratic" and to give the state governments less of a say in the federal government is dangerous, and is a result of our misunderstanding of what the federal govt. is for. The state governments govern the people, and the federal government governs the states to a limited degree, and oversees the affairs of the nation with foreign nations. The only reason that the people have any say in the federal government is so that the state governments do not go unchecked, or use the federal govt. to abuse the people.
I wrote a post here on democracy and the Constitution, and discussed the 17th Amendment, which changed the way in which federal Senators were elected, and showing how such a change of the Constitution is illegal, and detrimental.This is a long comment (*sorry*), but it is my thoughts on this important subject.
This whole issue of democracy and the Constitution is a very intriguing one indeed. As a result of my study of the Founding Fathers' writings, I have come of the opinion, as Alexander Hamilton did, that "democracy is our real disease." The Federalist Papers (not just the issues written by Hamilton) also carry this theme.
Now, the Founders were not saying that we should not have a popular government in some sense, but that the excesses of popular rule should be controlled. In order to understand American government, and the US Constitution, we must understand that LAW is above the will of the rulers and the ruled. All too many contemporary historians have made the mistake of thinking that we need to make the Constitution more "democratic," when a glance at the Notes and Debates of the Constitutional Convention (available free online through my blog The Founders' Bookshelf) clearly shows that the Framers avoided making the federal government directly responsive to the populous of America.
I wrote a post entitled "The Purpose of the Constitution" some time ago, to try to make this clear. I think that the Electoral College should remain a part of the Constitution for two reasons:1): the Framers deliberately instituted it to check what they called the "democratic excesses" of a country, and also to provide the way to give the state governments a say in the choosing of the next President as well.*2): to start tinkering with our Constitution, because people believe that "modern times" have changed our nation so much that we need to change our Constitution is dangerous, and I would almost say, treasonous. Because when the people of the land think that they can change the law of the land any time they please, they have already destroyed the foundation of a government of law, which is what America is supposed to be.
*I think that changing the Constitution to make it more "democratic" and to give the state governments less of a say in the federal government is dangerous, and is a result of our misunderstanding of what the federal govt. is for. The state governments govern the people, and the federal government governs the states to a limited degree, and oversees the affairs of the nation with foreign nations. The only reason that the people have any say in the federal government is so that the state governments do not go unchecked, or use the federal govt. to abuse the people.
I wrote a post here on democracy and the Constitution, and discussed the 17th Amendment, which changed the way in which federal Senators were elected, and showing how such a change of the Constitution is illegal, and detrimental.This is a long comment (*sorry*), but it is my thoughts on this important subject.
18 January 2008
Constitutional Proposals (or reflections upon reading Dahl)
In his book, How Democratic is the American Constitution?, Robert Dahl points out several aspects of our constitution which he views as being “less than democratic”. Although a number of these aspects of the original document have since been changed through amendments, several defects remain. Briefly stated, the major elements, as Dahl notes them, concern the election of the president (the electoral college), unequal representation in the Senate, judicial power, and lack of either strong majoritarianism or proportional representation in the government. In a series of upcoming posts, I will outline what a U.S. Constitution which has been rectified to overcome these undemocratic elements could conceivably look like.
My purpose in this is not to dishonor our noble Constitution, but, rather, to foster educated discussion of a democratic nature, as is fitting for citizens of a republic. Accordingly, all comments will be welcomed and, in most cases, published on the forum. I will begin with the issue of the Electoral College.
Presidential Election. The electoral college is an institution which, I believe, has outlived its relevance. It appears to me that the college functioned as the founders intended it to for the election of Washington and possibly Adams. From 1800 on, developments have “turned the elaborate machinery of the electoral college into little more than a way of counting votes” (Dahl, 79). In addition, the several occasions in which a candidate has won the presidency without a majority (or even lost with one), seem to imply that the electoral college is not only undemocratic, but in a sense, illogical. For these reasons, I feel that the college should be abolished.
Technology has advanced such that votes across the nation can now be counted (in most cases) with speed and accuracy. The president should therefore be democratically elected by popular vote. It is true that this will increase the possibility of voter fraud and corruption, but ensuring free and fair elections is a burden which every democratic society must carry.
It may be pointed out that a popular nation-wide election would probably encourage more candidates to run for the presidential office, and thereby increase the risk of having no candidate receive a majority of the vote. In order to counter this possibility, the ballots could be organized by “preferential voting,” as Dahl makes mention. Under such a system of election, voters would cast their votes for several candidates listed on the ballot in order of their preference. In the case of an election in which no candidate receives a majority, the candidate with the fewest primary votes would be dropped, and the secondary votes from those ballots would be allotted to the respective candidate. This process would continue until a candidate has received a majority.
It may also be countered that, given the political climate of the nation at present, in which several elections have been extremely close, contested elections will be a problem, prompting endless nation-wide recounts. In order to avoid this, a time-table could be set, limiting recounts to a maximum of a few days immediately following an election. If a clear victor still fails to emerge, the election would go, as it does now, to the House of Representatives, but with one critical difference. Rather than each state being allotted a vote, each representative would cast a single vote. In this way, the national population would be more fairly represented (especially given the make-up of the House, which will be detailed later), and the President elected by a qualified deliberative body.
My purpose in this is not to dishonor our noble Constitution, but, rather, to foster educated discussion of a democratic nature, as is fitting for citizens of a republic. Accordingly, all comments will be welcomed and, in most cases, published on the forum. I will begin with the issue of the Electoral College.
Presidential Election. The electoral college is an institution which, I believe, has outlived its relevance. It appears to me that the college functioned as the founders intended it to for the election of Washington and possibly Adams. From 1800 on, developments have “turned the elaborate machinery of the electoral college into little more than a way of counting votes” (Dahl, 79). In addition, the several occasions in which a candidate has won the presidency without a majority (or even lost with one), seem to imply that the electoral college is not only undemocratic, but in a sense, illogical. For these reasons, I feel that the college should be abolished.
Technology has advanced such that votes across the nation can now be counted (in most cases) with speed and accuracy. The president should therefore be democratically elected by popular vote. It is true that this will increase the possibility of voter fraud and corruption, but ensuring free and fair elections is a burden which every democratic society must carry.
It may be pointed out that a popular nation-wide election would probably encourage more candidates to run for the presidential office, and thereby increase the risk of having no candidate receive a majority of the vote. In order to counter this possibility, the ballots could be organized by “preferential voting,” as Dahl makes mention. Under such a system of election, voters would cast their votes for several candidates listed on the ballot in order of their preference. In the case of an election in which no candidate receives a majority, the candidate with the fewest primary votes would be dropped, and the secondary votes from those ballots would be allotted to the respective candidate. This process would continue until a candidate has received a majority.
It may also be countered that, given the political climate of the nation at present, in which several elections have been extremely close, contested elections will be a problem, prompting endless nation-wide recounts. In order to avoid this, a time-table could be set, limiting recounts to a maximum of a few days immediately following an election. If a clear victor still fails to emerge, the election would go, as it does now, to the House of Representatives, but with one critical difference. Rather than each state being allotted a vote, each representative would cast a single vote. In this way, the national population would be more fairly represented (especially given the make-up of the House, which will be detailed later), and the President elected by a qualified deliberative body.
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